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 Post subject: hmmm
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:57 pm 
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surprised no one's brought up all the drama surrounding the us presidency yet today.. people sure have been slacking on posts lately.. or at least, brining up news and discussing it. I'm not very political and only caught the jist of what happened from a friend who follows politics, but I can say now that all the people who blindly voted for bush and those who even *gag* supported him sure must feel like a bunch of dicks now.. good work!!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:05 pm 
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i was just thinking how boring and potentially forgettable this story is. of course it's serious, but the media hasn't done a very thorough job covering it. what even happened?

-something about CIA information leaking
-something about Karl Rove
-something about Dick Cheney
-G.W. trying to distance himself from controversy

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:13 pm 
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someone leaked the identity of a cia operative, the wife of a former ambassador who looked into Bush's claims of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and said it was false. So, there was an investigation and now they found out that white house personnel lied to a federal committee about it . Cheney's chief of staff resigned today because they found evidence that he was the source of the leak. So now i'm basically just thinking about the lives lost in Iraq and all the soldiers deployed over there that have basically been fighting a completely unjustified war (i always thought it was, but now there is actual evidence coming into to light to support my "opinion")

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:46 pm 
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heh.. well nice to know how little people care.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:25 pm 
Youre a Crappy HNM like Roc or something
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i care, save the ethreeopions

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:56 pm 
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I don't think anyone is really that surprised that Bush's administration has fucked things up big time yet again. It's what happens when you elect a mildy retarded man to the most powerful job in the world.

People only really get concerned when gas prices jump $0.30. That's when you see some public outrage.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:58 pm 
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I feel sorry for all those people in this pointless fucking war. I've hated Bush ever since the war started. Everything he does now makes me hate him even more. Good job finding the WMD you started this war over.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:06 pm 
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then my question is, if so many ppl dont support his actions, then why the fuck did he get elected for a second term? yall care to answer that question?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:29 pm 
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Gavin wrote:
then my question is, if so many ppl dont support his actions, then why the fuck did he get elected for a second term? yall care to answer that question?


Because there's too many stupid young people who don't know the real details about the war. We went there in the first place to find the weapons of mass destruction but there are none in Iraq, they said a long time ago that they're in Iran and N. Korea. Bush's "proof" that there was nuclear weapons in Iraq is "lost" or some shit like that. So basically there's no reason for us to be there or intrude in the first place. People have died over in Iraq for no reason. Ok so Sudam Hussein(sp?) is captured but now Iraq is in shambles and we're in a huge debt.

One day I was flipping the channels and I saw Real World was on and they were having some argument about the war. So I was listening and one of the guys said something like "There's no purpose for the war? Thousands of people were killed on 9/11 on American soil."(Wording sort of off but that was the basic concept). That pissed me off.. 9/11 was done by Osama Bin Laden who's from Afghanistan and isn't even in Iraq. 9/11 is NOT even what the war in Iraq is about! That shows that a good amount of people have the wrong information. The whole thing with Iraq and nuclear weapons is supposed to be "the war on terrorism" which has something kind of related to 9/11 but the weapons don't even exist. That stupid dude was talking like we had to attack Iraq to make up for 9/11.

Also I wonder if some people know that the whole world is against us now.

Edit: Bush puts on this whole "I love Jesus" thing so everyone is like "aww he's such a good guy and he strongly believes in God." well who cares if he's a dumbass.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:20 pm 
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Arrowyn wrote:
Because there's too many stupid young people who don't know the real details about the war. We went there in the first place to find the weapons of mass destruction but there are none in Iraq, they said a long time ago that they're in Iran and N. Korea.


The issue with Iran is not that they have WMDs. The issue the US and the other developed nations have with Iran is they now have the capability of producing WMDs because they started nuclear weapons and radiation research and the same issue has come up with N. Korea. Supposedly though N. Korea ended its research on nuclear weapons and Iran did also but as always there is speculation to secretly going against agreements and conduct the research anyway.

No I'm not saying this to defend Bush, in fact I voted against him (Democrat in Texas w00t! My vote is worthless!). I was also never in favor of the Iraqi war either. The point is misinformation can lead you to make false judgements.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:27 pm 
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fallenseraph wrote:

The issue with Iran is not that they have WMDs. The issue the US and the other developed nations have with Iran is they now have the capability of producing WMDs because they started nuclear weapons and radiation research and the same issue has come up with N. Korea. Supposedly though N. Korea ended its research on nuclear weapons and Iran did also but as always there is speculation to secretly going against agreements and conduct the research anyway.



Have or did research, either way it doesn't matter. Point is Iraq didn't have any nor did they do any research on nuclear weapons and stuff like that. Iran and N. Korea were by far a bigger threat.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:58 pm 
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Arrowyn wrote:
Have or did research, either way it doesn't matter. Point is Iraq didn't have any nor did they do any research on nuclear weapons and stuff like that. Iran and N. Korea were by far a bigger threat.


Iraq did plenty of research during the 1990s to warrant suspicion and which is why the UN tried passed so many resolutions to check Iraq for nuclear weapons. Even then they found no weapons.

Nuclear research is very common because countries dont just use it to build biological weapons. It is also used to help find ways to find energy resources (which is one of the reasons Iran stated a few months back why they started their program). Even India has conducted nuclear research but no one seems to consider them a threat.

One of the most common reasons for developing a research program is to create fear and command power which is what N.Korea did. It wanted to prove they are capable of being a threat and a force globally.It could be a reason why Iran did it also.

To say that Iran/N.Korea were a bigger threat than Iraq isn't true. If you remember in 1990, Iraq did invade Kuwait which incited the Gulf War and America did get involved. Ever since then Iraq had a rocky relationship with the UN and America because of its ruler.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:10 am 
Youre a Crappy HNM like Roc or something
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Gavin wrote:
then my question is, if so many ppl dont support his actions, then why the fuck did he get elected for a second term? yall care to answer that question?


Look at who he was running against. IMO (only my opinion) this was the lesser of two evils.


Iraq was an easier target, and he had to finish what his father started.

Iran and N. Korea would kick the shit out of the U.S. by itself, we would need the U.N. to take them down, and we couldn't get them.


Syria and Israel are even bigger threats.


btw, all this shit is just my opinion

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:13 am 
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I would make a long post about why I don't like bush and all, but for some odd reason I feel like i'd be preaching to the choir here.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:20 am 
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Hobbes wrote:
I don't like bush for various reasons.


There you go. Fixed. This also sums up my feelings.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:28 am 
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Gavin wrote:
then my question is, if so many ppl dont support his actions, then why the fuck did he get elected for a second term? yall care to answer that question?


red and blue states

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:37 pm 
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Gavin wrote:
then my question is, if so many ppl dont support his actions, then why the fuck did he get elected for a second term? yall care to answer that question?


....Because mildly retarded people want someone to relate to? :-P

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:39 pm 
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If you don't enjoy long posts, skip this one. :)


I'm not going to bother quoting individual posts, but I felt it necessary to offer people an alternative perspective to the ones being given here. While many of you have brought up valid points, you are either ignoring, or discounting a variety of others.

Many rail against the war being "unjustified", but let's be honest. When, or more specifically, for what reason is war really justified? I think each person has to answer that question by themselves, and no pundit on television is going to make you feel better, or sway the base reasons you might support war.

To be perfectly fair, I could have cared less if Saddam had WMD or not. He would have been more likely to use them on Kuwait, Israel, or Iran first, but not in that particular order, and the second he did use them, the United States along with most of Europe would have invaded his nation and turned it into either a glass parking lot, or a series of colonies.

On the opposite end of that spectrum, I believe this war was entirely justified, and quite honestly long overdue. There are entirely too many dictatorships on this planet, where the population of a country isn't considered worth the land under their feet. They are slaughtered, killed, imprisoned, and maimed for no better reasons than the clothes they wear, their political philosophies, or their religions. And yet, we have the audacity to complain about whether a war is justified because of our safety.

Unfortunately, I think it will be a long time before the people of this planet wake up to the fact that life exists beyond their 30x30 square mile area of existance. Perhaps later, when people begin to think more globally, than we can pressure regimes with mere threats of sanctions to remove dictators and oppressive leaderships, but until that time it will still take military force.

Now as far as the Iran vs. North Korea vs. Iraq thing with regards to being a "threat". I would not agree that Iraq was the least threatening. I will agree that North Korea is more of a threat, but any attempt to remove Kim Jong Il from power would result in not only the entire Korean peninsula going up in nuclear flame, but probably most of Japan as well, due to the inevitable involvement of China (see: Korean War). I suspect that like Russia, that North Korea will collapse under the weight of it's own incompetence and I fully expect to see North and South Korea become one nation within my lifetime. With respect to Iran, while their Theocratic government is somewhat of a concern, it also lends an incredible amount of stability. They would be the least likely in my opinion to go off invading other countries. Iraq on the other hand, had a meglomaniacal leader with questionable sanity, who had basically surrounded himself with yes-men. Sound familiar? Flip through your history text and look for the example of him in history.

One other reason that makes me think Iran getting nuclear weapons isn't unreasonable is history. The reason I believe they want them, is to offset not the United States (which would turn them into a 7-11 parking lot), but to offset the nuclear weapons of Israel. I personally think it's utter bullshit for the United States, or the EU to dictate to Iran that they can't have nuclear weapons, when they refuse to force Israel to disarm their nuclear weapons. Look at India and Pakistan. They both have nuclear weapons now, but does anyone really truly fear they will decimate each other? No. Because if one fires, they all fire and we have considerably less Hindu's and Muslim's in the world. Same reason Iran would never fire their weapons, unless Israel fires hers first. Nobody wants to lay claim to being the last alive Persian or Jew.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:40 pm 
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P.S. If you want people to read your topic, make a more suitable topic name than "hmm". I initially assumed it was some pointless, "Check out the penis headed bear" type post.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:46 pm 
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when did all this happen?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:11 pm 
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If we were going to try and stomp out all dictatorships, why not start a bit closer to home?

We get rid of Fidel, we get some more cigars.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:33 pm 
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Purity wrote:
If we were going to try and stomp out all dictatorships, why not start a bit closer to home?


Sadly, because most Americans don't care about life beyond their 30x30 square miles. Today you can't actually engage in a conflict for other people. You have to show that they have threatened your people. Most americans sadly could give a fuck less about Cubans because they aren't their neighbors.

Take those same people and move them in next door and provide a common language, and Castro would be gone in a week due to the utter outcry against repression. Hell, the ACLU alone would supply a tank division.

People simply have a "It's not my problem" because they live too far away. Out of sight, out of mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:39 pm 
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Thanks for posting Kailyn.

Its really interesting watching this happen. I know Karl Rove is under investigation, but its doubtful they'll indict him with anything (although that will be an 'o rly?' moment if he had committed a crime, haha). Abu Ghraib, the Dowing Street Memo, the Iraqi war, the Patriot Act, threatened marriage rights for citizens, responses on Hurricane Katrina, and the general opacity of the White House have reminded me with that feeling an old political science teacher told us about that "somethin' just ain't right" when he had lived during the Vietnam War.

I had already convinced myself that this administration was bad news, but I can't say recent developments are ever comforting.

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