I'm going to play devil's advocate for predestination, as I can see their point.

1. God predetermines one's future

2. An individual sins

3. It follows that, God predetermined that individual to sin

4. Therefore, it was not out of choice, rather, necessity that sin occurred.



This entire argument ignores one crucial factor: The individual herself is unaware of the choice she will make. When the choice lies within a nebulous subjectivity, the individual herself is actually responsible for determining her own fate. If she were aware of her choice, and was unable to change it, then she would have no autonomy over her actions. However, as she does not know her destiny, she is capable of making a decision of her own free will.

Yeah but your saying someone makes a decision because of destiny. I don't believe God plans things out, period. Your life is the way it is because of what you have decided and has nothing to do with destiny. I'm sure God knows where you are heading but he does not choose that for you and he does not change that for you. I believe miracles happen because God wants to give you another chance. For example, last year my cousin was studying till really late at the library. She fell asleep at the wheel on the way home and went flying out the window(forgot what she hit.. maybe a car). Anyone who saw what happened would of thought she was dead but instead she just had a broken arm. If destiny exists then whats your explanation for miracles?

The Bible.

Theres plenty. Also my parents didn't stone me to death or sell me to slavery so they're not good christians. Ever eat ham? That's a sin. Here's a good philisophical one: if God is all powerful then could he make a stone he couldn't move? Know any christians that hate homosexuality? Hey wait, Jesus taught to love your fellow man, would Jesus embrace the frat boys that nearly beat a gay man to death on Franklin Street in Chapel Hill? When and why did God switch over from being Vengeful to all merciful? God only flooded the earth for awhile and burned a town to ashes, but hey he'll forgive people no matter what.



And with reading that, I'm officially done with this thread, lol.

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Retired 8/21/06
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Miracles would essentially be fated too.

Find actual issues within the Bible, not some presumptuous tripe you seem to throw against Christians.

I was brought up Catholic. If your really mean enough to make me go hunt down actual passages I could do that. Its what Google's good for, hoho

EDIT: Ok, here's some of my "presumptuous tripe," these passages were taken from essays and websites.
These passages are taken from this neat essay: http://www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html

Excerpt on why you can't eat ham.


Excerpt discussing where God tells people, through moses, to kill as well as suggesting rape. (This is God formally known as vengeful God).


Gonna have to look a little harder for the other stuff, but its there.

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Ok, it's been a few months since the last theological debate. I'm game

I was promised contradictions, not passages you object to on a humanistic moral basis. Surely you can post a list from infidels.org or something??

Here's your contradiction on that said hate ctime: http://www.godhatesfags.com

The URL title sums it up. I don't even have to click the link.

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Retired 8/21/06
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That's not a scriptural contradiction. That's just something you have a problem with. You said contradictions, I want contradictions!!!!

I'm going to bed, post any apparent contradictions you see in the scriptures. I'll do my best to resolve them tommorow.

dont sweat it, old white men have had you covered for the last 2000 years

If you want me to link to it I could, but most sites I saw with stuff like that seemed too out of context. You should see the pathetic list at the atheist homepage, its much worse. If you'd like to pick at those then you could.

I'm making the point that there's contradictions in christianity. The numerous contradictions between the passages in the Bible as to how Christians should govern themselves can easily be intrepreted otherwise, as you've already done. I just wish I could brush you off as easily, haha.

And fuck you for pulling me into another one of these threads. Made me break my promise to myself, haha I get trolled so easily.

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Retired 8/21/06
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If they govern themselves differently than Christ's and the apostles' precepts, then that's their problem. I'm just looking for simple contradictions within the Bible itself

You know, about 2 months ago I would actually give a damn about this thread. Now its just entertainment.

PS: Arrowyn

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If only you all had a large Proton-Enhanced Nuclear Induction Spectroscopy machine like I do.

People take religion way to seriously. Everyone needs to calm down, especially Cad, stop throwing personal insults man.

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http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm#INDEX might have something in it as far as contridictions, i just didnt want to go through them all.

i think religon is a way to serious thing. it should be a moral guideline to some people, like the ten commandments. the bible is written by men, men who harbour injustice, greed, malice and fear in their lives. of course its going to be full of hate. do you really believe the creator of all would look down upon anything he made or not embrass it? small example: take arts and crafts materials, and build draw or create something. spend a good amount of time on it. now tell me that no matter how ugly the shit is you dont appriciate it and look away from it for it.

that example applies due to the fact that what we percieve is basically what god does supposedly. he created us in his image meaning just like him, only minus the super natural omnipresense. its when people feel the need to force their religon onto others that wars and fights break out. why cant we keep our own religous beliefs and practices to ourself and communities. sure talk about your religon but dont stand outside a abortion clinic throwing things and mocking people who go inside. you are not god, you have no right to pass judgement.

but back to the topic, i see that evils in the world and sin play a part in covering up that god is infalabe. but my question about that is, for something so powerful to be the beginning, the end and everything in between with infinite foresight... dont you think its possible he forsaw all things to come (mans evil and sin, as well as mans good)? its written that god has a plan. even if there were several plans, it all encompasses into one large plan. i still lean to the idea that:

God gives man free will, but being the beginning and end and all between knows everything that is going to happen... he just doesnt intervine. (what i mean is say your watching a rerun of a tv show, you know exactly whats going to happen but you cannot change the outcome). i believe that would be the only way for god to make a infalable plan, by knowing what will happen but not interfering he is able to write what you will do before it happens knowing its what you will do. then by knowing everything that will happen writing the plan accordingly and fitting to what everyones decesions are until the ends of time. so good and evil arent really coming into play into his plan, which brings me back to... if someone decides to have an abortion, and god has known since before he created man that this would happen... wouldnt the soul in that baby goto heaven right as planned not early like many religous people think?

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75WHM / 37SMN / 61BLM / 37RDM / 70BRD / 75NIN / 75RNG / 56THF / 37WAR / 37DRG http://www.myspace.com/dan_wyld

lol, I don't have anything against Sniffles, I just hate that I got pulled into the thread that's all. I don't think I threw anything personal at you, Sniffles, if I did sorry, haha.

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Retired 8/21/06
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she just takes her christianity very seriously

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Jim, with all do respect, dont marginalize(sp?) sniffles. Further more Cad, nobody dragged you into this thread, you did that yourself.

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If only you all had a large Proton-Enhanced Nuclear Induction Spectroscopy machine like I do.

I'm not marginalizing Sniffles, in fact I wasn't even trying to come off condescending, I just made a statement about her based on what I know about her, so Cad could understand why she might feel insulted.

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I never understand why the issue even exists... At what point is killing someone else correct? I've lived by a very simple statement I once read somewhere.. the second you have to rationalize something, its probaly not right. That being said if you need to figure out a reason either in your own mind or society wise as to why its okay to kill this person, then I'm sorry your not in the right.

I'm personally against abortion, I've never known any civilization to codone murder without some serious implications later.. and in realty no matter how you want to break it down, you are stopping the life processes of a living being, which means you are killing it, unless you were given the right to kill it by its own existance, then you are murdering the said being, which pretty much is not something I think anyone wants to touch.

Its beyond just the religious psycho babble or govermental garbage, its just a common sense issue. Is it cool to kill something, and when is it cool to kill something, and in the end who ultimately has to live with the act of killing something. I don't care if you think your go to heaven or hell for killing something, but just answer when is it okay to kill something. Then i want someone to prove it to me, kill something according to their rationale, and don't feel regret, and then you might have a point.

Religion in my opinion was made to dirfect us towards a working ideology, but you always have to have some sort of common sense...

I can not ever figure out a way to rationalize killing some other human...

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

I can think of a good reason for not doing it, which doesn't need to presuppose the existence of a soul: The West's population is declining, whereas third world countries continue to grow.

actually in every civilization its been forseen "ok" to kill or murder. shit in gods name alone more people have been slaughtered. incans, myans and other ancient civilizations used to sacrifice people on a very regular basis... and it was a highly regarded honor. samurai held honor in the highest respect and would kill themself in order to keep it intact.

the point of what i was trying to figure out was what drives religous people to camp in front of abortion clinics, and even kill doctors who perform abortions. the route i was going is that it was already in gods plan for that particular unborn child to die when it did and he planned accordingly. when you are born you are given original sin, but to die prior to being born means you are truely innocent and garunteed a spot in heaven(according to what i read). god never said it was good nor evil to do so, but he will judge you accordingly in the afterlife. that being said i always felt that the people who believe their one true creator is the ultimate judge tend to prejudge everyone more harshly.

i like to live my life, and leave the afterlife to whatever lies ahead to judge me. being on an equal ground as everyone as a person im in no way shape or form anyway qualified to determine what you can or cannot do. i respect your choices as people, while i may think something isnt right... i will definately never do what some do to others because they deem something wrong.

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75WHM / 37SMN / 61BLM / 37RDM / 70BRD / 75NIN / 75RNG / 56THF / 37WAR / 37DRG http://www.myspace.com/dan_wyld

There is always two extremes to every action, in no way is killing someone ever justified as correct. It may have a logical reason to kill them, but logic is not morally correct always. My argument is simply that, people get those things confused. Don't bitch or presume yourself moral if you are willing to kill someone who is incapable of defending themselves. Too many times people like religious fanatics or women's right wackos use their beliefs as a justification for murder on both sides of the table. A women has rights, no one denies that, does that right include murdering, ending the life, stop breath, stopping life signs, drilling hole through head, poisoning, etc any child she doesn't want... I really don't think you can rationalize that, and like I said if you have to rationalize it it’s probably not the right thing to do.

I think a lot of social laws unfairly concentrate on the women’s right to end this child's life, when in reality I think the laws should concentrate on the man's ability to declare its not his responsibility.

If your poor and have nothing in life but your pregnant is it logical to not have a child, yes.

Is it moral as a human being, not in terms of fracking religion or anything, is it just moral... I would say no. But then you can easily tell if its moral by just realizing whether or not you try to rationalize it to yourself.

Different people have different concepts of morality sometimes, although in our "normal" societies anyone who doesn't have a conscious that finds "ending someone’s life without their permission" deplorable is usually labeled a murderer.

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...