I'm not talking about those materialist beliefs. I'm talking about a line of conduct with other human, something that isn't induced by science (your sen 5 sense won't tell you to be nice with someone, to treat everyone equally or stuff like that). Do you believe in equality? Do you believe love exist? Do you believe that human or any living being are more important than matter? Do you believe we have some sort of soul?

Beside, saying time and space have always been is far from being scientifical. Science is divided in 3 category: logics, observations and experimentations. Unless all 3 criteria are respected, you can't say it's based on science. I've studied in astrophysics a few year ago, and I can tell you for sure we can't assume anything about the Bigbang. We know there was a big explosion, but that's about all.




First contradiction in Whisp's religion. Where did you respect "christian"? It's easy to say, but I don't see any effort to respect christian's belief since you constantly call their belief wrong.



God in a general statement like that is a force who created matter, not necessarily associated to any religion. Picking what appears to you as the "easy" solution is basically doing the same thing than religious people who believes in God




Why is Universe composed of matter only? If universe energy was equal to "1" before the big bang, what happened to the anti matter?

If science can't keep an empirical equation of the universe, don't ask other to prove it their belief using that.




One goes with the other. Just because you are not following any mainstream religion doesn't mean you're above the concept.



Wrong. Land issue is the main cause, get your fact straigth. I would say money and power after.

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Main: War75/Sam63/Blm71/Rng45
Sub: Nin37/Thf37/Whm37/Mnk30
Three nation: Done Zilart: Done CoP: Done

Its land and Power/oil other natural resources

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Job 10: 20
The mikey's have a plan. Djay isn't all powerful.

i hate when religion is used as a scapegoat for war, people may claim it in the name of religion, but its the people and greed that cause war

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Religion is just a set of belief, beliefs don't cause wars, people unwilling to accept other beliefs exist cause wars..


One thing I'd disagree with though kaylia, is that you can disagree and consider someone wrong without losing respect for them

Calling any religion wrong should not be equated to losing respect for the people who follow it.

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

I agree with that, but there is different way to call another religion wrong. When you are disgusted by a religion and its beliefs, there is no way you can argue while respecting other person's beliefs.

The best way to do so in my opinion is to express your belief and explain the logic or reasoning behind them, if there is any. It won't be considered as a direct attack, and show how you disagree with the other person.

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Main: War75/Sam63/Blm71/Rng45
Sub: Nin37/Thf37/Whm37/Mnk30
Three nation: Done Zilart: Done CoP: Done

true, agreed

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

I disagree. I think all beliefs can be scientifically explained. The basic question is, how do we explain why we want to be nice to someone, or good in general? Why do we prefer to be nice rather than doing harm? Entire books could be written on this, but the simple answer, which I tend to believe, is that humans are naturally more productive in when cooperating with one another rather than trying to harm one another. This is true with all animals, including humans. Our animalistic instincts guide us towards the propagation of our own species, which explains why our brains have developed to prefer "good" (productive) over "evil" (counter-productive).

Why do we prefer to be nice? Humans are very social creatures, like all other primates. Primates rely on each other for survival. As humans evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago, they banded together to hunt, sexually reproduce, and to protect one another from predators. Over time, social behaviors grew more and more complex. Being "nice" to one another allowed the evolving humans to from stronger bonds with one another, giving a greater chance for survival and prosperity. Nowadays, we still retain these learned behaviors, although now we extend ourselves beyond simply trying to survive. Now we are "nice" because society will function much more smoothly. When things run smoothly we are happy. Happiness is just a learned behavior that we experience when our lives are productive rather than counter-productive.

I have neither the knowledge (of how our brains chemically evolved to produce different hormones that encourage certain behavior as well as discourage behavior harmful to ourselves and our species) nor the time to really dissect the myriad of human beliefs, but I think all beliefs (and everything else in this universe) can be explained scientifically. Just think that thousands of years ago, we thought the Sun was a god. Now we know better. We already know a lot, but in time we will know much more about how our brains work, why we believe certain things and so forth.

kaylia-
ok this is getting lengthy, lots of points to try to tie together. but i enjoy typing about stuff like this.

do i believe in equality? i guess it depends. equality of people? yes. but i believe it isn't inherent. it's just usually in our best interest as a species and as individuals. do i believe love exists? of course. emotions are very scientific. do i believe living things are more important than nonliving things? not inherently, but subjectively they are, to me. living things are very special because of how long and delicately they must evolve and how impossible it has so far been to construct life on our own. do i believe we have some sort of soul? not at all

you can definitely have beliefs that are unproven and still based on science. called a hypothesis. some hypotheses won't be proven for a long time, if ever. but they can still be rooted in science. i can assume anything i want to about the big bang. i think youre getting fact and theory mixed up. astrophysics deals with facts. cosmology deals with theories (and its a subcategory of astrophysics). both are based on empirical evidence, but if its a topic that can be tested it is shifted to the astrophysics category.


ive probably contradicted myself plenty of times, but this isnt one of them. first of all i said i respect christians. i didnt say i respected christianity. the two are different. if you wanted to ask me if i respect christianity, i'd say i respect it about 20% and disrespect it about 80%. i think it does more harm than good. i respect christians 100%.

i kind of see it as the difference between what is logically easier versus what is socially easier and also intellectually easier because you don't have to deal with logic and just take others' beliefs on a platter

im not really sure if the antimatter in the universe has to equal the matter. i dont see any reason why it would need to. if you believe antimatter might be the "spiritual realm" that is an interesting belief, though i dont believe it personally

about religion and morals, one definitely doesnt go with the other. that is because while religion seems to be dependent on morals, morals are completely independent of religion.

land issues being the cause of wars is a good point. but keep in mind boundaries begin forming because of cultural differences, and religion is often the biggest rally point against a neighboring group, even if the genetic difference is minimal.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

Its more productive to remove the wasteful parts of your civilization rather then allow them to exist and slow your civilization down, aka survival of the fittest. If we subscribed to this notion then I would be dead, seeing as how i wear glasses/contacts and thats makes my eyesight inferior to other humans. Since we don't subscribe to it though we rise over what we our biologically programmed to do, which is survive. The easiest way for a creature or organism to survive is to remove the competetion, we as humans go out of our way to keep our competetion around, even when it is sickly, hurt or damaged. Thats not scientifically sound or is it logicallly sound, its morality though which more often then not does not ever make sense logically or scientifically.

And good and evil our intangible concepts, they are not scientific. We created those concepts out of religion. Animals inheriently are not good or evil by their standards, only by our standards.

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

Aye, I see what you are driving at. Leaving the weak behind would genetically strengthen the human race, no doubt. But are you saying that people with glasses have absolutely nothing to offer society? I can't say I've ever known someone who is an absolutely perfect human specimin. Even people who have no apparent physical flaw can have mental flaws, like addictions or other psychological problems. I don't quite understand your logic. A victim of paralysis from the neck down can still write a great novel, or compose a great symphony. A mentally retarded individual can still perform tasks beneficial to society.

What we call love and compassion are just chemical reactions within our brain. We feel these things because our brains have evolved to function in way that makes society run smoothly. Love strengthens our bonds to one another, making us more protective of one another. Love is one of our predominant emotions. One of our greatest evolutionary achievements, if I do say so myself.



Again, I associate good and evil with productive and counter-productive. Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it isn't scientific. You do know that feelings of good and bad trigger different chemical reactions within the brain, right? Our brains have evolved to make us enjoy being productive, what we call "happiness." We also enjoy when others around us are productive, because we are social creatures who depend on one another.

When you say animals do not understand good and evil, I guess you are excluding humans, who are just another species of primate. We are anatomically so similar to chimpanzees it's astounding. Do chimps understand good and evil? Anyone who has spent a long time studying them would probably say yes, although not to the level of complexity that we do. Have you even seen an elephant herd mourn the loss of one of their dead? Or a penguin father and mother lose their egg to the brutal antarctican winter? Animals feel emotions also, just not to the extent that we do. Our brains are very similar to other animal species, like primates, just vastly more complex.

boo hoo

my ultimate plan has come to fruitation.. release the pineapples vile servants! release the pineapples!!! for I am Chamelius!

Being unsensitive to someone's feelings is not the same as not knowing how something works, just because I don't give a shit about your feelings when you get overly sensitive and overly serious, doesn't mean I don't know what rapes does...

Your in a round about way proving a fundamental point about this thread right now, if everyone takes everything in life so literally and in terms of what is taboo and not taboo to say, then you wind up with fundamentalist morons that can't handle reality or real thought. Just because the litttle picture in the top left corner of the message says what it says, doesn't mean its true or its gonna happen, its just a little picture.

I should put the crazy anime guy with a gun so we can all be offended by the sterotypical anime guy. Who sticks up for his rights? Crazy gun carrying anime guys have feelings too mofo.

Life is full of whiney biotches like this that want you to feel sorry for their cause and make you act a certain way so you don't disturb their "norm", and I frankly don't see a point in catering to you.

P.S. one thing for the fundamentalist... if the sun didn't fall out of the sky and there was no sunscreen back in the bible days, jesus was a very dark man with dreads(hairstyle back then)... freak out now and get scaried OMG the world is ending...[/quote]

Christian fundamentalists would know that common depictions of Christ are inaccurate, as he was of Semitic and not European origins. Nice try at trolling, though. I give it a B-

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

in what way are we defying science?

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

I've got a couple general questions for the Christians. Just a few things I've never really understood concerning the 7 deadly sins. I know one of them is thou shalt not lie. Does this have any bearing on whether or not you get into heaven? I know all of us have lied many times in our lives, but I'm wondering, is there like a point system or something? Like above 10,000 lies, we don't make it into heaven. And maybe certain lies are more points than other, like lying to you wife about whether she looks fat in a dress or not would be 1 point, but lying about something in court that would save someone's life would be like 1,000 points. I'm just wondering if this is ever explained in detail in the bible, exactly how important it is to follow this rule.

Another one I was wondering about is the rule that says thou shalt not place too much importance in food. Gluttony is what they call it I think. Anyways, I look at America today, the largest population of Christians in any country on Earth, and all I see is massive obesity. I think like 80-90% of adults are overweight, and a large percentage are also obese. I was just wondering what messages god has sent down lately about this growing problem. I'd be interested to find out his perspective. I know he supposedly used to talk to people directly all the time 2000 years ago. Just wondering if he broadcasted any disapproval about the new McDonald's credit card.

Not too sure, but I've heard that regardless of any past sins so long as you repent and give yourself to God at your final hour, you can get in. So I wouldn't stress about it too much TS. But, hey, I thought you didn't believe in it anyway?

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I don't, but I still like to understand seeing as how so many people believe in this stuff.

why pray?
from my experience, things go my way about half the time if i pray, and things go my way about half the time if i dont pray. its as if praying doesn't make a difference at all.

it almost seems like begging. i bet god frowns on it. he'd probably rather us spend that time actually trying to fix shit ourselves, or, if nothing in our power can be done to fix things we should spend that time preparing for the aftermath of whatever bad shit happens.

is praying supposed to actually make god change his mind about stuff? what is it supposed to accomplish?

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

Describe fundamentalist views from your opinion then Sniffles... because fundamentlist to me are people who take the bible word for word, and believe blindly what it say without having any balls to question their local priest and acutally make that priest think once in awile. But your more then welcomed to elighten me if I'm 100% incorrect in my thinking.

Gawd has anyone watched Narnia, great adapatation of bible stuff, its seriously a kick ass movie. Its just riddled with tons of bible refrences all over.

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Warlock's are not OP, maybe if you stopped running around like frightened little girls you'd be able to beat me...

haha, good point. if christians think prayer works, then they are pretty much admitting that god is fallible.

Coming from experience with many a fundamentalist viewpoint, obviously if you have a question about religion you can ask anyone, and also I can't think of any fundamentalist churches with priests. . .mostly reverends, pastors, etc. Its not about blindly following the bible, but it is reading it and believing it with you're heart. IF you don't want to, you don't have to.
YEs narnia was a good movie

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prayer is not to change his mind about stuff, if its in God's will then it will be done, whether or not you prayed for it

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Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.


1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

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I don't really have time to go through all of this thread right now... but i read a little.

I guess i would just like to say that as a christian I'm very happy. I always considered myself to be a christian. I went to church all my life and got confirmed... but that was it. I always just CALLED myself a christian. i got to college and met a guy that was in a bible fellowship on campus.

I started going and asking questions and stuff and got really into it. I started actually developing a relationship with god. And i found it to be very awesome. Knowing that there is a god that created this universe, that there is a god that loves us, and if i do right on this planet that i will be rewarded not only in this life, but in the afterlife.

The main difference about choosing to become a christian is this. After i turned my life around a bit and started living my life for god... things got way easier. I can say that i was happy before but i would be lying to myself. Sure i was happy a lot.... but i was happy for the wrong reasons, and things would inevitable fall apart. If my mind is on god and i live life for him (which for me means to live life for good) then i won't be botherd by stupid earthly thing. i've never been happier.

Now that's not to say i don't use science or logic in my everyday life. In fact Philosophy is going to be my major, probably Logic. But science is just science, no matter how much you find out about the universe, no matter how much you can figure out about the big bang, no matter how many different galaxies we visit, science will never tell us WHY. Why this universe was created, why we're here, and what our purpose is.

Now the idea of there being no god to me seems silly. I'm not talking about a christian god, but a god in general, or gods, something above us. To think that this beautiful universe, so complex and so infinite just HAPPENED. That it has just always been, and been without purpose. We just happen to be in this particular solar system of this particular galaxy in this particular planet orbiting this particular sun and then based on some very unlikely events we came to be... humans. That to me seems just as unlikely as believing in a god.

I'm not one of those "You're going to hell!" christians. Far from it. I respect everyone and try to withhold judgement, just as the bible says and i think more christians should work on that..., but to think that we're just here... and that science can answer all of our questions just seems depressing to me. To think that we could do anything in our lives and achieve the same result. To think that a murderer and a child rapist have the same fate as me, to think that i could do anything i want in this life, be it "Good" or "Bad" I'll be going to the same place that a saint will. I think that as humans we should strive for good and peace, and the bible wholeheartedly compliments my thoughts. And also knowing that Jesus was a historical figure, not only in the bible but many many other historical documents, and knowing that believing has brought me more happiness than i've ever felt is proof enough for me.

I'm not trying to stir up any specific arguments right now, i'll come back to this thread later and read up more... but i just wanted to post some of my thoughts for now.

~Amber

amber,
your thoughts are definitely welcome. i disagree with most of what you wrote, but you would probably already know that if you have read my posts. but if you consider yourself a good person, there is something we have in common. maybe we're good for different reasons though.

what is good? it's all relative. from my experiences, i have determined if actions are either socially good, bad, or neutral. good to me would be whatever causes the most amout of happiness for the most amount of people. there is a philosophy regarding this but i can't remember the name at the moment.

k looked it up. its utilitarianism. i really like that concept. that's basically what i follow. i admit i also give slightly more weight in my decisions regarding myself and the people i love, but it makes me happiest to know that others are happy. so that is why i am good. why are you a good person?

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya