I'm in no way a liberal or a republican, I see no difference in two evils that constantly struggle for power in order to pass their laws, debts, etc on to little people like me however, these tidbits of presidential data seem pretty bad for Mr. W

http://www.alternet.org/story/40678/[/u]

Slowly but surely it looks like the administration is going up in flames, finally.

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

viva la revolucion?

What we learn (now and)after the fact won't matter in the end, just more mistakes to look back on and hope not to repeat. The administration may burn but the orchestrators will dance in the flames before their time comes.

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Some stories can't be told with words, some legends are meant to die

This is nothing new, really. But very nicely put.

If you think this is a lot; do a little more research.

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Do you have anything to add?

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Retired 8/21/06
Don't click this link.

I just can't wait to see how this era is portrayed in the history books lol. Might be quite different than what some of you think depending on how things turn out. So much hand wringing. Bleh I just don't believe in police state warfare. It has historically failed especially when the US is concerned. You either are aggressive until you destroy all of your targets or you just leave lmao. My country is full of pussies and crybabies it seems. Keep wishing Iraq didn't happen, it is already too late. Instead of crying about what Bush did, we should come up with viable strategies, ideas, plans or something else constructive. A little more than 2 years left anyway, and then the country will have someone else to cry about as President.

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Eternus Ifrit Server Atariii LS member
75 BRD with a bunch of subjobs

my train of logic is simple and if one reads history you should be able to follow this:

#1 It seems our nation-state is heavily influenced by it's Christian ideological views just as much as the Muslim of the East and Judaism of Isreal. Remember and let it be said that we like to perceive ourself as victors and good people in this but we are not as innocent as we claim to be (if one is wise enough not to argue with this notion) as we too have performed atrocities in the name of God. We seem more and more to be fighting a religious battle (whether this be done mainly for oil, wealth, freedom, democracy, control of another area or however one wishes to perceive it) as ourselves and other religions seem to be fighting God's fight or so we all claim. If completely true then this would be ideological-religious warfare and as such this type of warfare has bred the worst known wars to man.

#2 In all known history, fights abroad where people remain largely divided on whether the fight is really a good fight weaken the heart of our nation-state. Alexander's conquests weakened him, Rome's Republic came to an end, Napolean etc. Our interdependence (financially, materially, technologically) and involvement with "policing" the rest of the world may perhaps be our own undoing. Our infrastructure is weakening and economic divide between rich and poor is more and more beginning to show. The money we have spent on our little war could have solved the military strenghthening of our own nation at home. We could very well have better invested and fought our own crime, unemployment and homelessness as well as addressed educational issues and researched more medicine and technology. Still I feel that those in control do not wish to share their wealth, health or their power. Our borders remain unprotected and anyone may bribe us should they have enough of our own "American dollars." Still our population booms out of control (more mouths which we must feed or starve where child physiological and psychological development may breed only more of the same before it, only worse) as we financially all suffer and pay for those we imprison as well as those too undereducated to realize that by having too many children in order to recieve money only hurts us all. We have grown weak, our support to even our own brethren (Hurricane Katrina) also displays this weakness as yes we helped a good many people, but only long enough for the news stories to cover something else, Mississippi suffered even greater. Our own government spending and national debt has grown beyond measure. In order to set things right we must become independent again, as independent as when we first battled the British (this notion sounds crazy and prepostorous but allow me to ask you, what does a wise man want when he is dumped on a continent and given all he truly needs?). Our power and hunger for world control has perverted us. The snowball has now grown too large I feel to fully reverse. Many have grown apathetic and only seek to see what they may gain before they die, however by doing so perhaps yours as well as my own future children will learn nothing from this behavior should they repeat it. We are in dire times my friends, dire times indeed.

I am in favor of Isolationism myself. Policing the world is not worth it in my opinion. I don't care who believes that they are right or wrong, the victors write the history. The religious parts of this war notwithstanding aren't the only issues. Iraq was attacked for reasons other than religion. Complaining about the attack that already happened does no good. Something more constructive would be to suggest how to effectively end the conflict without destroying the country. Spouting off about the past and history is nice and all, but if you can't apply it to the current time then its all for nothing. Just sounds like more crying to me. I have seen more dire circumstances portrayed in history. I talk to my grandfather regularly about World War II (he was in the Navy and fought against Japan), this isn't shit in comparison. He thinks the Baby Boomers (my parents generation) have weakened the nation and filled it with weak willed pansy type individuals who cry more than get anything done. You can argue about how this war was started, but we have to do something now to fix it.

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Eternus Ifrit Server Atariii LS member
75 BRD with a bunch of subjobs

well put Eternus, however no one I think knows how to fix this war for Iraq and my little history view was not just about Iraq, but the world. Isolationism to me also seems to be a good solution but I do not believe we ourselves are any wiser than the stories of Atlantis and we may implode ourselves should we try it. We can all see how poorly Cuba is doing with it. However, Cuba's governent is quite different from our own in many respects and I strongly believe we need to strengthen America as a whole and a general nod in that direction (isolationism, not Cuba)may do our nation some good.
Perhaps that may have been yet another purpose of entering Iraq in the first place. You see the only solution that makes sense to me is to make it our own, to conquer it, to police it and to make it as much a state of America as California. This in itself is also preposterous thinking but tell me a better solution and I shall hear it. We entered it, we lost lives for it, we imposed our democracy upon a people that seem unready for it, perhaps a "trail of tears" all over again is in order? Our attempt to save Iraq from Iraq may be in vain otherwise. I see no other real good solution or notion that Iraq could exist by itself (should we leave Iran would more or less dominate and attempt its influence over it, or it may go into civil war, or it may even turn on its American liberators as much as it has already with its own public opinion). Perhaps this was the vision our leaders had all along. So in the end, this thought has lead us to now believe in thinking that this wrong may be right. Something about this unsettles me.

I think we should stop trying to infulence other countries so strongly. I think that the only reason our leader's doing this is to maintain our world superpower standing and not to show any weakness, such as not doing anything about the terrorist attacks which are supposedly why we're fighting this other war in the first place. I think we should just focus on improving our own country first before we do anything for others, like someone said above.


Edit: I just saw this while reading through that article.

The official White House claim before the invasion of what the war and occupation would cost U.S. taxpayers: $50 billion

As of July 2006, the total amount appropriated by Congress for Bush's ongoing war and occupation: $295,634,921,248


That's just rediculous.

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[In Yarr we trust.]

Yeah war is costly both in lives lost on both sides and in money spent. It will be near impossible to do the police state thing in Iraq. Their people will not take to any type of democratic capitalist government imo. If we just leave now, they will get overrun by Iran. Well Iran has always had its problems with Iraq anyway and vise versa.

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Eternus Ifrit Server Atariii LS member
75 BRD with a bunch of subjobs

A good book to read if you're interested in the propaganda found in history text books is Lies My Teacher Told Me by James W. Loewen.

i dont think "crybabies" is the right term to use. just seems more like a lot of people are concerned that our nation's representative is not representing his citizens well.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

Has it ever?

all the former presidents of either party affiliation have seemingly done a decent job when compared to the current one.

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RIP Shiloh - I'll never forget ya

clinton ftw

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myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/6016227

75war/nin&thf-retired||54blm/30whm-retired again

this one as well has his cabinet seems also to have personally profited more than many of the others combined as well

perhaps we should garnish his wages in order to fund his own agendas? why are we paying for it agian, i'm confused, did he even win the popular vote?

Yeah Iraq was a stupid idea, but related to historical lies? I am not in school anymore so really all I learned at any school about war in Iraq is related to what I saw the first time with the Bush Sr. That was in college mostly lol. As far as the history of police warfare, well look at Vietnam for that example. Generally when you leave people without a government they are controlled by one of two types of governments. One that is seeking revenge from those who changed the nation that effected them with warfare, and those who are not. No shit Bush has a shady presidency, go fund people who are chasing getting him impeached if that is your true passion. Well if that is your number one priority. Go out and vote if you didn't, definitely you have no right to complain if you didn't vote in the first place if you were able to.

What to do with Iraq can either be a long delicate costly police state war or it can be quick but not easy to stomach. Either way it will likely cost lives on both sides, but to differing degrees on one side to the other. The people of Iraq were going to vote in a religious leader, but we obviously introduced them to seperation of church and state lol. They don't like that haha. Spending energy and thought about how to correctly approach this problem will suck, but it has to be done. Yes some people fucked up and got our generation in a ton of messes (social security is a huge fuckup waiting to happen along with the environment btw). Iraq is just another problem passed along, hopefully our generation will not pass this kind of shit onto the next. Really the problems of the world can be blamed on all kinds of people, but fixing them is going to be more important for the upcoming generations while also avoiding pitfalls ourselves. Need to learn from past mistakes obviously.

I am not saying forget about the mistakes of the Bush presidency. The focus should be on the next viable political canidate that is to be elected. If you think you have a valid case against getting Bush impeached, then go right ahead. Otherwise you can talk about the next president or formulate a plan or actually have answers for what we are to do with Iraq. Go write the White House a letter/e-mail if you think it will do any good and that you offer a solution. Not offering solutions and just crying over what someone you can't control did does no good for you or the country... that makes you a fucking crybaby.

I know that Bin Laden wants the land Isreal is on at the moment for the people of Palestine. The Jewish people have not been in control of Isreal since well before the Romans did which is more than a couple thousand years ago. Well until after WW2 when we basically made Israel what it is now. That might not be totally what you think is related to Iraq, but it is a agenda in foreign policy. I am not ignorant historically to that lol. Do you think giving Isreal back to the Muslim extremists and leaving lands like Iraq that are predominantly Muslim will make terrorists stop attacking the US? Do you think honestly it will stop there?

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Eternus Ifrit Server Atariii LS member
75 BRD with a bunch of subjobs

I wish I had the energy and patience to talk about this anymore. I just don't anymore though lol

Isn't Hilary Clinton running for president? I'd vote for her even though I'm not a democrat..

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[In Yarr we trust.]

The british empire did a good job policing the world for 300 years nearly, it was the largest empire ever although most people dont even know it existed even in England lol.

a lot of the problems in the world where you have different ethnic groups conflicting over various reasons can be traced back to european colonial powers imposing their government systems onto other nations, it was only after we abondoned the empire to speak that a lot of these problems flared up.

What I'm trying to say that if the most powerful nation in the world wants to help control everyone else and keep the peace then they can do it, just think about Queen Victoria, she was related to nearly every royal family in europe, (first world war starts and the kings of britain and germany were cousins or something lol). 40% of the worlds population in the 19th century lived and died under her rule, and the rule of Britain. For the most part it was peaceful, we fought I think one major war during her reign,


The american way of invading and toppling the old regime and expecting people to accept democracy being imposed on them (thats a contradiction im sure) is doomed to fail. if you invade and get rid of the old regime, you have to expect that you will automatically become the new rulers of the country. the iraqi government would be swept away if the US and UK and other contributing nation soldiers werent there. Thats the realistic truth, which in my opinion means iraq is just a vassal state of the US and will remain so for a long time.


I think people will look back at george w bush and laugh, not just at the obvious dumb as shit things he says "don't misunderestimate me" is my fave btw, but his whole philsophy and how he sees him being guided by christian values thing is rubbish. get a man/woman as president who has their own morals and more importantly can put them aside for the good of the mankind (stem cell research veto anyone), not who gets his morals from a book.

Tony Blair (thats the UK prime minister :P) I think will be remembered mostly for being a puppet on a string of the US. Many people in the UK feel that our entire government system is just some subsidary of the White House and irrelevant to our lives anymore. It's not that I am against america or what it stands for, more just how it goes about it. Subtlety is often overlooked in favour of war/missiles/air raids. And I am equally against Tony Blair for his policy of basically kissing Dubya's ass over everything, too bad there isnt really anyone else to vote for and people wonder why we get less than 40% turnout for elections lol.

k end long post after being away from any form of internet for nearly a week. :D

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God Mandos, you have no idea how embarassing it feels to see Blair and Bush stand side to side and speak. Blair is eloquent and obviously thinking, and Bush mumbles as he sorts through his notecards. I can't believe that Blair will be remembered as the puppet lol.

Bush even shouts "YO! Blair!" now. What the FUCK. I was watching the House of Commons on CSPAN and they all shouted "Yo! Blair!" as he stood up to speak. Oh fuck lol.

Yes because intelligent people never have problems with public speaking or using their own vernacular in public settings right? Intelligent people never make bad decisions, nor do they lie. Would you say these are facts that one should hold onto while judging someone's intelligence? Intelligence is the ability to learn and hold onto knowledge previously learned. I would say Bush appears to not be intelligent, but I do not know him well enough to judge him fully. It is not like I know him personally in real life lmao. His actions are either stupid or he has a hidden agenda. Seems to me from his background and the fact that he could easily gather knowledge and advice from his father, that there is an intent behind what he does.

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Eternus Ifrit Server Atariii LS member
75 BRD with a bunch of subjobs

Well he may well be a better public speaker but I really mean his policies that are always pro US even when they are perhaps not so good for our country.

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