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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:43 pm 
Onionhead
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i got pissed off on my way home today i was listening to sports talk radio which i usually avoid, and they said
talk radio wrote:
"PETA is at it again, now PETA claims responsibility for why the NBA changed their basketballs from cowhide to 'cruelty-free' synthetic material. you know what, i hate PETA, i hate anything they say or do. charles barkley put it best, animals are good for two things, eating and wearing. any chance i get to take a stab at PETA i take it. what's next? no hamburgers at the food court? at least the NFL praise the lord kept their cowhide footballs, that tells you which sport knows what its doing"
so me getting pissed off might have been echoed in my post. even still,

stuff like that is so annoying. i never push vegetarianism or veganism or whatever (unlike eternus said). i dont care what people are. eat meat all you want. what makes me sick is how a certain mindset of people, i guess you could say the country/football/beer/macho/sexist/ kind of person always ALWAYS takes so much pride in his eating of other animals. nature didn't "intend" for us to eat meat because nature doesn't "intend" anything. animals do what they want, and that's what leads to stability or change, either way. eat meat, dont eat meat, eat plants, dont eat plants, doesn't matter.

basically i dont think "you're awful for eating meat." its more along the lines of "you suck if you think humans have an inherent right to do whatever they want to with animals, almost like how christians think man is the center of the universe, we aren't," plus "you suck for getting so defensive about how/what everyone eats, let people have their opinions and eat or not eat what the want." that sentiment often gets misinterpreted as holier than thou. i eat plants, yes, not animals, mainly for two reasons, i can't stand the way any animal product tastes, whether its fish or chicken or fuckin llama cheese, it all makes me puke and spit and down 80 glasses of water. and second, it makes me sick to my stomach to think i'm eating something with a nervous system and muscle, something that had a brain and could think. some people dont mind that, thats fine. i think its sick. yea yea animal rights and all that shit and health, all good reasons not to eat meat but i just avoid it cause its sick.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:51 pm 
The legend. Teh Ponuh™
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Just wondering, whisp, how do you get your the protein that everyone else gets from meat? Most vegetarians supplement whatever nutrients they aren't getting from not eating meat, which in a way suggests that humans were meant to eat meat. Then again, maybe I'm blowing smoke out of my ass.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:10 pm 
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considering I need about 60g protein per day, and i get about 60g per day in the form of beans, nuts, bread, vegetables, soy, etc. i think im okay. most meat eaters get 2x enough protein, which ends up causing calcium loss, brittle bones, overworking waste removal of the kidneys, kidney failure, and ketosis. so.. i think i'd rather not eat excess protein. i feel sorry for people who take protein powder to bulk up. even though im not emo thin, i still think that's a healthy way to be. im 6'2" 170, which is about the right weight. i laugh when people take pride in gaining excess weight or beer bellies.

i was just talkin to TS and remembered when i was a kid all the churches i went to taught us to believe that all animals except pets don't go to heaven. only pets do. that's why its okay to do whatever you want to animals (except pets) because what really counts is heaven. silly.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:11 pm 
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Obesity is such a problem in the general population now, and at the center of the American diet is meat, usually of unhealthy quantity and quality.

Whisp isn't bashing meat-eaters, he's just saying that their are a lot of obese people walking around, and 99% of them are meat eaters who eat a lot of unhealthy meat-based meals. Americans on average consume like 5x-10x more protein than say, asian populations. subsequently our #1 cause of death is heart disease, because much of the protein Americans consume is very high in saturated fat. (not sure but I think #1 cause of death in Asia is shame and/or dishonor, I'll have to look that up). But yeah, it's a problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:12 pm 
Onionhead
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Ponuh wrote:
meant to eat meat

my personal belief is there is no "meant" going on. animals fit into niches, sometimes move on to new niches, sometimes stay in that niche til they go extinct or not go extinct. but no "meant."


look at pandas. they have canines and they have a short gut, but they eat primarily bamboo shoots. animals do what they can to survive and they were doing fine til man came along with its holier than thou attitude and devastated their populations.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:30 pm 
The legend. Teh Ponuh™
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Meat isn't the source of our obesity problem. It's all of the prepackaged foods, pops, and fast food (meat is only half of the problem there).

To say that animals aren't meant to eat certain things is just totally false. The distinction of carnivore/herbivore/omnivore is a basic, proven fact.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Ponuh wrote:
The distinction of carnivore/herbivore/omnivore is a basic, proven fact.


Then how am I surviving on a plant-based diet?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:53 pm 
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Thunderstomp wrote:
Ponuh wrote:
The distinction of carnivore/herbivore/omnivore is a basic, proven fact.


Then how am I surviving on a plant-based diet?


Because you have access to every type of vegetable in the world in your local supermarket, can use supplements, and rely on soy protein (which is awful for you, but that's a different discussion). That's not nature allowing humans to eat whatever they want. It's humans defying nature.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:02 pm 
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That's not nature allowing humans to eat whatever they want. It's humans defying nature.


there is no "defying nature" going on. humans have just evolved past the hunting and gathering stage. it's called adaptation.

and how is soy protein bad for you? I get a good amount of protein from soy and I'm fine. Actually I had some bloodwork done about a year ago and the doctor said I had one of the healthiest charts he's ever seen.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:11 pm 
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No, being able to have foods from India and South America in every grocery store in the country isn't merely "evolving past the hunter/gatherer stage." It allows vegetarians to eat the foods that probably aren't found/produced/manufactured anywhere near their area to remain almost as healthy as someone iwth a balanced diet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:14 pm 
Onionhead
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Ponuh wrote:
No, being able to have foods from India and South America in every grocery store in the country isn't merely "evolving past the hunter/gatherer stage." It allows vegetarians to eat the foods that probably aren't found/produced/manufactured anywhere near their area to remain almost as healthy as someone iwth a balanced diet.


lol what are you trying to argue there?


anyway, so you say certain animals are "meant" to eat a certain way? who "means" it to be?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:16 pm 
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lol Ponuh, trust me the fact that I can get food from India isn't some magical ability that defies the very Laws of Nature. It's simple human evolution.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Who cares what humans eat now. What's important is our high-protein/meat diets as cavemen helped spurn brain production and allowed our brains to become so much more advanced than other animals. This allowed us to evolve/adapt/whatever.

So we all owe meat some bit of gratitude for its services in the past. But if you want to eat non-meat stuff now, that's totally fine with me - just don't tell other people they need to eat the same way. haha

And I'd attribute the United States' weight problem to both diet and lifestyle. The majority of our jobs are non-labor jobs, requiring more work with computers than hand tools.

I just like to pretend that people still say that the fatter you are the more successful you are, since you have the luxury of becoming fat. I know that's not true anymore, but I have like 20 pounds I want to lose, and so I'm gonna continue to say that until I lose it. lol.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:34 pm 
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I think Ponuh is trying to explain the point that physiologically speaking we haven't changed much since the days of hunting/gathering. Granted we've made leaps in bounds in scientific pursuits, communication, transportation, etc. But the human body was built to survive with far harsher odds than what we have to deal with now. We were designed to live off of what we could find it eat, usually meats or whatever we could forage from the ground. So, we were meant to survive off of meat or really whatever we could digest, however, it doesn't mean thats whats healthiest for us. What's healthiest for people really depends on the person itself.

The fact that we can go to the grocery store and stock up on a weeks worth of food is sorta unusual. And this is why people are so obese now a days since food is so readily available on top of being cheap. They're other problems with food now that we can genetically alter them to produce certain desirable strains... but that's off topic.

Anyway we can survive on alot of things. Humans were designed to eath both meat and plant life, however, what we should be eating is still up for debate I suppose. They're benefits and disadvantages for either diet, although strictly meat and strictly vegan are both unhealthy from what I've gathered. Everything in moderation.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:58 pm 
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it pisses me off that being a nice guy i always finish last. i started dating this gorgeous girl, and now she wont talk to me at all

also, it pisses me off that i am at college just so i can get a good job and have a higher probabilty of being successful in the real world, when i wont remember half the shit i learned... oh, and having to spend $40k to not remember it

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:19 pm 
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Meat was the starting point that helped our brains developed the abilities we used to create our civilization, which we all so grandly love.

The idea of "meant" is true, defying that is up to you, but we are "meant" to be omnivores. We share every skeletal feature necessary to classify us as omnivores, along with every other omnivore on the planet. Being an omnivore is our adaptation, it allowed us to digest animal and plant matter, in order to survive easier and fuel our exaggerated energy consumption due to our bipedal nature and our overactive brain activity. In short we would have not been efficient in our current body types as purely herbivore based animals. You are an example of that, no matter what you say if you did not have the ability to supercede your environment, you would have to consume your protein from the animal matter around you or die.

In today's lifestyle we can use common sense, byproducts, and supplements to create a totally herbivore version of man. But that’s not entirely proving that it’s the way things work, it just proves that our technology has gotten to the point where we can control our metabolisms.

Meat is meant for a complete diet, in moderation. Plant is the primary source of our energy, but meat was meant, and is meant. Omnivores supplement their diet with meat.

When I read your panda argument I had a point to throw out there.

"Despite being taxonomically a carnivore, the panda has a diet that is overwhelmingly herbivorous. The giant panda eats shoots and leaves, living almost entirely on bamboo. This is believed to be a recent adaptation for the panda. Pandas incapable of surviving solely on bamboo would have died out and this is how they've evolved. Bamboo is virtually the only food source available to pandas today. It is believed it was originally a supplementary food source, until the panda could find something with a greater nutritional value, as bamboo offers very little nutritionally. Study on this is very limited due to the low population of pandas. Pandas are also known to eat eggs, the occasional fish, and some insects along with their bamboo diet. Wild pandas today do not have very good access to these alternative food sources. These are necessary sources of protein. Some zoos also feed their pandas specially formulated biscuits, fruitsicles or other treats to supplement their bamboo intake. Like other subtropical mammals, the giant panda does not hibernate."

You are backing up your argument with an animal in the middle of genetic division, in other words, your argument would hold water maybe 500 years from now when pandas evolve out there canines. But until then, they are carnivores, adapting to a changing environment or they will go extinct, which is how things are generally looking right now for them. The panda is designed and meant to eat meat, but they eat plant material because they have no source of readily available meat. Thus they either evolve or die. They have no choice but to become herbivore. And they are in the middle of evolution to do so. I suspect unless we keep helping them though, they will go extinct. Not many animals in history we know of survived the switch over.

All I’m saying is your argument is wrong, not your lifestyle. We are modern, we are cultured, we are independent thinkers, and we humans can create and shape our own will and life. You are always free to choose what you eat for whatever reason you determine. But the argument that meat is not meant, is incorrect. More so, your desire not to eat meat stems as a psychological choice, but you as a human being are meant to eat meat. You may decide not to, but you are meant. Until you evolve out of it, you are an omnivore, a creature which consumes both meat and plant material in order to survive in its environment. You are just choosing to defy your own evolutionary design. And with our current technological advances, you are able to accomplish that goal without too much detriment to your health.

Conservation of Energy holds true in this discussion as well. The soy/bean protein you consume, require more energy input to create, then what you would receive from it. The plant is an inefficient design. The people, who put energy into farming the plant, would not be able to survive solely on the plant’s protein intact, they would have to supplement it with outside sources. Since they are using more energy to produce the plant, then they are gaining from the consumption of the plant. The only reason the plant works for your diet, is because you do not have to put the energy into farming it. Otherwise your solely vegan diet would not be able to consist you on the enormous energy output and protein requirement needed to farm the plant.

Technological progress allows you exist on the soy protein, not an absence of “meant”.

Ohh and I hate long posts, but they are so fun to type. Don't hurt me Whisp!

Edit: Hey anybody ever saw that film about eating fast food, think its called Supersize Me. Fast food eating, no matter where is so sooo fattening, even subway type stuff its still semi-bad for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:30 pm 
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I'm overweight. Animals did it to me

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:45 pm 
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Daedalan wrote:
Conservation of Energy holds true in this discussion as well. The soy/bean protein you consume, require more energy input to create, then what you would receive from it. The plant is an inefficient design.

to eat meat you gotta feed the animal some plants. i dont see how just eating plants is less energy efficient, if thats what youre saying. plants are extremely efficient, and your only other option of using the energy of sunlight to assemble sugar would be photosynthetic bacteria. but plants are experts at storing this sugar, and animals are experts at eating it.

you guys keep saying "meant." who means it to be? meant by god? meant by our ancestors? meant by whom? meant by nature or evolution isn't an answer.

pandas aren't carnivores if they eat a plant based diet. i think i made my point pretty well, that if one claims an animal's best interest is always to conform to its own physiology, he's wrong. pandas that consumed bamboo survived because they had no competition for the bamboo, and the bamboo couldn't run away.

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Last edited by Whisp on Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:47 pm 
Mike&Ike Irl
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Thunderstomp wrote:
lol Ponuh, trust me the fact that I can get food from India isn't some magical ability that defies the very Laws of Nature. It's simple human evolution.


human evolution is magic, thus making evoulution itself an ability to defy the laws of nature.


i hate that kid everyone knows that thinks its ok to spit on you, and call you a faggot and do w/e the hell he wants but as soon as you punch him back and call him a pussy, he either starts crying or is so shocked that some one stood up to him and then starts crying.

people who smoke pot are alrght, i mean i dont mind, but people who pressure you to smoke pot piss me off.

i like going to parties and smoking hooka/huqqa while watching everyone else get drunk. i hate going to parties and having some chick pick up the hooka and tipping it over like some dumbass and knocking the coals off and burning the carpet or my lap.

i like smoking hooka with friends, i hate it when that same girl who tipped it over is holding a wet paper towel and fails to pick up the coals off the ground leading me to pick them up with my bare hands.

srh brodogs pissme off

kids who say they are drug free and sXfuckingXe are cool, you make your own choices, but kids who say that and the next day get put in the hospital for a drug OD or alchohol poisoning frustrate me

the kid who gets back from a month in rehab for alchohol abuse and says hes never going to drink again, and has o go to jail for 5 days for a small crime but has workrelease but on the 4thday calls in to work and returns to jail hammerd.

school security


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:48 pm 
Onionhead
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Ridere wrote:
So we all owe meat some bit of gratitude for its services in the past. But if you want to eat non-meat stuff now, that's totally fine with me - just don't tell other people they need to eat the same way. haha

And I'd attribute the United States' weight problem to both diet and lifestyle. The majority of our jobs are non-labor jobs, requiring more work with computers than hand tools.


/nod

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:54 pm 
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Ridere, I agree with your post.

Daedalen, we aren't "meant" to do something just because it's worked for us in the past. We do what we do because it works for us right here, right now.

and...

Ponuh wrote:
human evolution is magic


*stares blankly*


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:02 pm 
The legend. Teh Ponuh™
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I DIDN'T SAY THAT. WHAT THE FUCK :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :o :o :o

Ike said that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:07 pm 
Mike&Ike Irl
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hahahaomg. thats funny though. cheer up


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:07 pm 
Onionhead
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lol ts.. i thought ponuh said that too. i guess cause it had ponuh in the quote.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:07 pm 
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