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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:26 pm 
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Eternus wrote:
Play the damn riff or melody yourself on a fucking instrument or get off the stage lol. Repeating someone elses studio take on an instrument (or even worse live performance) and looping it is the biggest piece of crap thing I have ever heard in music.
While it is true there is only so many notes available that the human ear can hear in the first place, the melodies coming from someone who is actually playing them themselves is the only thing I can respect whatsoever


Have you ever heard of a live cover? Bands play covers all the time of music that inspired them. Does that mean you'll automatically walk out of a concert the second dave matthew's plays a bob marley song?

Eternus wrote:
Sampling is nice when it is used sparingly on a CD, but I would rather have the core be around actual instrumentation played by real musicians. I don't want to hear someone sample a BB King lick and loop it over some dance beat with some jackass telling me how rich he is. I want to hear someone play guitar, drums, bass, or hell even an actual orchestra. Fuck sampling and fuck drum machines, technology is used as a crutch to mass produce shit music.


In regards to what? Would you respect Kanye more if he had a guitar solo in his song? What you dont seem to grasp is that good lyricists use their words to amaze their audience the same way Jimi used his guitar, or how Mariah Carey uses her voice.

But wai-

In order to be a real musician you need to be able to play an instrument? So what about Mariah? Whitney Houston? Michael Jackson? Do they not count? You're really starting to not make sense here.

You guys can dislike rap and what it's about all you wish, I just find your reasoning completely off.


Ponuh wrote:
The only non-rap artist you mentioned was A Perfect Circle, and they weren't sampling so much as taking a garage band loop or something? That's hardly "present in all genres of music"


[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=hxeNZOLNh4c[/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:30 pm 
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I like Rap better than rock, and always have. I don't give a shit about comparing instrumets to a beat that's produced with a computer. If I don't like the sound, then I'm not impressed. I also like techno. So fuck off.

Also + 1 for old school > current rap/hip hop.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Covering a song is different because you are singing the vocals yourself and playing the song on an actual instrument. You can attach your own style and tendencies and transform the song into something different. That being said, I hate cover bands and covers in general, they are throwaway songs on CDs usually. They are only good for a laugh.

Saying that sampling something someone else played is the same as covering something is a joke anyways. Pick up a instrument and play it yourself, if you can't then you have no business using it in your music. People need to stop being lazy fucks and copy/pasting samples of other's performances in Pro-Tools. Its fucking pathetic. Make up your own fucking melodies and either play it yourself or hire someone who is good enough at the instrument to play it for you (don't repeat and loop shit either lazy uncreative bastards).

Singers are rarely musicians, they usually just sing in the key you write for them. None of those singers you listed actually write their own music. "So what about Mariah? Whitney Houston? Michael Jackson?" The first two can really sing, but they are mainly entertainers, and they DON'T WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Which is all that matters. Michael Jackson is a fucking joke rofl (dude could dance and has a weird voice that is it).

I wouldn't like Kanye more if he had a guitar solo, I would like him more if he had someone who actually played the guitar or any other instrument for that matter. Guitar solos would sound stupid in hip-hop anyways. I don't just listen to music with guitar in it, I like Classical music quite a bit. Don't sample someone else playing piano or violin, do it yourself. If you can't then you have no business putting it in your music and calling it your creation.

I saw the Black-Eyed Peas at UCF homecoming in 1999 (this was pre-Fergie), they actually had a drummer, bassist, guitar, keyboard, DJ, etc. That is at least a step in the right direction, even though the band didn't look like they were doing much if anything at all. I fucking hate how souless drum machines sound. I really don't like Blues Traveler, but they blew the Black-Eyed Peas off the stage that night because at least they can actually improvise and understand music theory lol.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:52 pm 
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It sounds good to me is the master statement of the uniformed masses. Those some phat beats yo! That hook, can't get that shit out of my head lolollolol. You don't have to listen to "rock" anyways. Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, and many other forms of music are exponentially more worthwhile than any of the sampled diarhhea that flows out of today's music industry. This is something I can quantify, I am not stating it as an opinion. They sample the crap because they can't play it themselves reliably.

I like crappy movies myself and I don't care if a better made movie is more entertaining to some people. If it makes me laugh and I don't get bored watching then I like the movie/TV show. That would be a comparison to music. Except I am less forgiving with music since as a artform it has been around forever. That would be my closest example to rap I guess, except in crappy movies at least they are shooting the scenes themselves and not splicing together pieces of other movies as a "remix" lol.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:00 pm 
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2vrS7QFfaE[/youtube]

I may hate rap, but I certainly don't hate them as much as those guys. They're a prog rock band from somewhere in europe (sweden maybe) and they've got a song that really thrashed the rap industry in a rap style. Ironically, this song is more effective and carries more wait than anything I've heard in the rap genre for a very long time. Rap is suited for stream of consciousness lyrics like this. I think a lot of rap artists would probably kill to be able to capture a style like this. It's funny that a fucking prog metal band can do it better. Read the lyrics while you listen:

Quote:
[1: Introducing Star]

(We saw you every day)
with your hands on your crotch and so much to say
You went from bouncing toy cars with golden motors
To neon striped BMWs and a court of drugged up nodders and quoters
Namefucking fame on all photos,
All cheered on and applauded by even richer promoters
Now when you're a star, when you've reached this far
And the world really knows who you are
(really?)
You show off your six black Mercedeses and drink Cristal like they all do
And the poor outside your gates appall you,
And the only hood you see is the one on your car
Do you even have a clue as to who you are?
Bro, I don't think so
I mean Mercedes, what a stiff old dull fart's republican shit car
Sick of hearing you preach to the poor like before,
Only now you're a coward, only letting TV through your door
Getting older, take a bow and just go
The rage on the stage getting colder like your hits on the chart,
But then the talk shows can still get you hard
Doin' rhymes on your prime time fistfights
And spittin' grime in the limelight like a star gets a chip off your shoulder,
A boulder that rolls and rolls over and over and over

There's nothing like a broken childhood
There's nothing like a broken home
There's nothing like a tale from your hood
There's nothing like a record of restriction orders
Outspoken borderline disorders, a violent long way to the top
The longer that you fought yourself up, the longer the spitfall

[2: Thus Quote The Craving]

You're so fucking lost that with all of the costs
You still don't see that in reality
The one thing you fail to buy yourself is a personality
You're trapped in a mould of the rap, you sell but you're sold
I mean, can't believe that you're paying all that gold to some home decorator that hands you buckets of conformity
Seems you're losing your way together with your policy man,
Ending up with a new definition of poverty - it's a joke
Like those you make in every video to reach the kids with the dough,
With every copied "aha yo" and worn out "bro"
Guess what we need is yet another clown who can feed our breed with another look and hooker hook
Now when "bitch" is mundane you take the lead with "wassup ho" and let TV blur your mouth once more
Just what we need in every store, thus quote the craving: "forever more!"
You're so right - a shiny knight on a white steed, truly a hero
Yeah right
Fuck you - fuck you right down to the core!
You know what? You're just another "Parental Advisory" bore!

There's nothing like a broken childhood
There's nothing like a broken home
There's nothing like a tale from your hood
There's nothing like a record of restriction orders
Outspoken borderline disorders, a violent long way to the top
The longer that you fought yourself up, the longer the spitfall...
When you're rappin' your shit y'all

[3: Redefining Vomatorium]

(Yo)
I guess when you're that loaded you'd better empty the barrel
Every chance you get, is that so?
Empty your word and pose magazine, in magazine after magazine,
Let every shot go, let the shit flow
'Cause the show must go on and on and on - you're it bro!
But it's sad to know, when your star implodes, all that shit hits the fans, just like your words back when you shone
But it's getting late in the game, trapped in repeating your name, again and again,
Like you're scared we'll forget it
Can't blame you, apart from that name you're all embarrassingly the same, it's so lame - can't you get it?
And perhaps you are right in that fear - more sane than you appear in your self deploring cock obsessive koks delirium
But I say, to me you just redefine the old romans' vomatorium

There's nothing like a broken childhood
There's nothing like a broken home
There's nothing like a tale from your hood
There's nothing like a record of restriction orders
Outspoken borderline disorders, a violent long way to the top
The longer that you claim that you have fought yourself up, the longer the spitfall...

[4: Man Of The Masses]

You're a man of the masses, took all the classes
Their asses are yours
All those bores who are paying the bills for your palace uphills
And your pills that will help you proceed in your greed
You are free of the chains that you need on your fans to adore, to kneel down before you,
More precious to you than your brains and your hands
They live for you!
If you could just see this old tree, this patriarchic hierarchy, up where you want to be, you need miles of roots to lick your boots
Don't you see?
You're a man of the masses, you need all those asses, their fate to relate to the one that you were
Do you know who you are? Who are you? Not the one in your words that they buy
They concur,you conquer, though a natural flunker,
You need them to stay not fly, to obey like the dogs that they are, the cogs under the hood of your Mercedes car
They will pay for your trip to the stiff upper lip
You're a man of the masses, your trip is a journey through classes
You are high, they are low, and you need it to be so
See, without them you'd be nothing more than before, and you know that's not much
It's just or unjust such: just a sad little man... with his hand on his crotch

There's nothing like a broken childhood
There's nothing like a broken home
There's nothing like a tale from your hood
There's nothing like a record of restriction orders
Outspoken borderline disorders, a violent long way to the top
The longer that you fought yourself up, the longer the spitfall...
The longer the spit falls...
When you're rappin' your shit y'all

[5: YO]

You're just another "Parental Advisory" sticker surfing beach boy
Yo!


Last edited by Ponuh on Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Kluya wrote:
I like Rap better than rock, and always have. I don't give a shit about comparing instrumets to a beat that's produced with a computer. If I don't like the sound, then I'm not impressed. I also like techno. So fuck off.

Also + 1 for old school > current rap/hip hop.


I agree, I'm huuuge on lyrics when it comes to rapping but if I dont like a person's overall sound then I just listen to them. Old school rap was great but theres a lot of new rappers that have real talent.

Overall, I can finally say that 'm starting to like the sound of rap today as much as oldschool hip-hop. The only problem I see today is that all the commercial successes that you saw on TV in the late 80's to mid 90's were all extremely good rappers. Nowadays, the big names like Lil John, Akon, and T-Pain, and T.I. are what people are mistaking for rap.

There really is a lot of talented rappers that just arent as popular.

Examples would be Saigon, Joell Ortiz, Papoose, Iron Solomon (youtube him), The CLIPSE, Wu-Tang, DJ Khaled, Swizz Beatz, and Papoose-download his freestyle called Alphabetical Slaughter. Its rediculous. Those are just some of my favorites though, theres some more good stuff out there.

Right now i'm starting to branch out to other genre's. I just started smoking and listening to Dave Matthew's lol. (I might see them in Sept./Aug.) Their violinist is crazy. Seal is my man, I just bought 3 Daft Punk CD's the other day. I also started listening to 311 too.

I love using my iPod with my 360. I actually get to listen to a lot of good music while playing Forza.

Oh and i used to listen to a lot of black eyed peas back in the day. Fuck any of their new shit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Ponuh, do you think that song is good? It's easy to say that theyre lyrics are better than anything you've heard when you havent listened anything particularly good.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:31 pm 
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Eternus wrote:
Covering a song is different because you are singing the vocals yourself and playing the song on an actual instrument. You can attach your own style and tendencies and transform the song into something different. That being said, I hate cover bands and covers in general, they are throwaway songs on CDs usually. They are only good for a laugh.


cover songs are good for royalties, reinvigorating interest in the original artist as well as the new band, and for saving/destroying careers. Any band that does a cover usually gets more recognition from the cover than from some of their original pieces. Even the great Bob Dylan used to cover Guthrie songs before he did a lot of his own legendary material. Not exactly throwaway if you see what all is gained by the power of "a cover song."



Eternus wrote:
Pick up a instrument and play it yourself, if you can't then you have no business using it in your music. Make up your own fucking melodies and either play it yourself or hire someone who is good enough at the instrument to play it for you.



You do realize Trent Reznor would not exist if he applied this standard. And I really like that Gnarls Barkley song "Crazy" a bit too much to hate it solely for its sampling.

Eternus wrote:

(don't repeat and loop shit either lazy uncreative bastards).



Many songs have a basic loop or generic melody, from Beatles to Doors to Stones to Led Zeppelin.

Also every hook to every song you ever loved would be eliminated.


Eternus wrote:
Singers are rarely musicians, they usually just sing in the key you write for them. None of those singers you listed actually write their own music. "So what about Mariah? Whitney Houston? Michael Jackson?" The first two can really sing, but they are mainly entertainers, and they DON'T WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Which is all that matters. Michael Jackson is a fucking joke rofl (dude could dance and has a weird voice that is it).



Old MJ was the shit! Billie Jean, Thriller, I Wanna Rock with You, Man In The Mirror were classics!

Well according to all this criteria, I think I got a hip-hop band for ya, they're called The Roots. :)


Last edited by Supafly on Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:33 pm 
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honestly i think arguing about why one style is better than another because of various reasons is retarded. everyone has thier own opinion, and everyone is always right, and incredibly stubborn. you aren't gonna sway them to agree with everything you say. some people just wont see it.

here is what i think is crap music though.

90% of dirty south
100% of pop rock / pop music in general
10% of mid 90's rap
pop-trance (DJ SAMMY, shit like that)
emo music (go cry cause your mom didnt buy you a bmw, faggot)
alot of reggeton (im puerto rican and i think its crap)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:37 pm 
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btw, micheal jackson is not a joke. if it was not for him alot of the music that you listen to probably would not have ever existed, and yes micheal jackson did write alot of his songs, but even in a recording session the producers will say "i dont like this part of a song, heres a better verse or chorus" even artists now a days do that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:39 pm 
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goDeejay wrote:
Ponuh, do you think that song is good? It's easy to say that theyre lyrics are better than anything you've heard when you havent listened anything particularly good.


I don't particularly like it except for the lyrics, which I think are really effective in trashing rap in a similar style.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:40 pm 
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*playing Devil's Advocate for a second:

If rap/hip pop and pop music is soooooo bad, and if some of these certain groups are soooooooooooo goood, how come they're not popular or played on radio or television?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:45 pm 
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I have heard the Roots, the are considerably less lame than the majority of hip-hop. I don't care for pop hook featured songwriting. Repeating a melody or riff ad naseum, does just that... makes me sick after a while. I like the song intially because of the catchy hook, but I move on quicky and find something else. That is nothing substantial, unlike something composed in a more epic manner. You can have a hook in a song like that, but the hook or chorus isn't the "meat" of the song and there is more than just a few verses to support the chorus.

The difference either way is that at least real musicians are playing the part every time it needs to be played and consistently do it without screwing up (maybe improvising other parts to spice things up in a live setting). That is different than hitting a button to play a sample at the correct time. You have to play in key and in time as a musician obviously.

As much as I liked NIN as a youth, they aren't half the band I considered them. Trent Reznor indeed uses technology as a crutch to make up for his weakenesses as an actual musician... that much is obvious. You won't see me make excuses for people who saturate their sound with technology to mask their inability to do things without. Same goes for wah pedal abusers, drummers who abuse triggers, vocalists who have to use harmonizers and soak their voice in reverb (ugh) and the sort. It is all lame.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Autotune = the death of real singers everywhere lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Supafly wrote:
*playing Devil's Advocate for a second:

If rap/hip pop and pop music is soooooo bad, and if some of these certain groups are soooooooooooo goood, how come they're not popular or played on radio or television?


Because the masses are dumb as fuck. The world is full of retards basically who want to bound their head or dance (just to get laid). Hot chicks in videos and materialism helps a good deal as well. Just because something is popular while the artist is living, doesn't mean it is worth a damn. Most geniuses are so ahead of their time, they aren't realized until well after they are dead.

Sorry buddy, MJ only wrote the lyrics to those songs and not the actual music lol. Writing lyrics is not writing music, he like most others hire people like Babyface to write their actual music. He didn't inspire any music I listen to and he is a motherfucking joke of the highest order both musically and personally. The Jackson 5 didn't even inspire anything I listen to. Its all sugar coated pop memories from my childhood, no substance to them at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:58 pm 
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oh, so now writing words is not writing music, i take it opera isnt music then, singing accapello (sp?) isnt music then either or takes musical talent. only if you play an instrument is it then concidered music, where have i been all these years of my life.

i take it next your gonna say if you didnt paint it with a brush it isnt art, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:05 pm 
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I think lyrics are at least 50% of a song

however lets not confuse this with actual musicianship as I believe the legal term is artistry. However the point is lyrics are usually 50% of any song legally.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm 
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Ponuh wrote:
carries more wait

I tell you it isn't ponuh.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Lyrics are poetry that are set to music and classical music doesn't have vocals mostly for example. Your voice is an actual musical instrument, but the lyrics themselves are not. Singers rarely if ever drive the songwriting process. They just write lyrics and sing in the key of the song you wrote for them. They are musicians of course in that sense. Lyrics are for songs with words anyways. Operas are more than just words, they have orchestrated music that is epic in scope as well. You can write lyrics all you want, that doesn't mean you came up with the vocal melody you are singing them to (and the accompaniment that happens to determine what key your melody is in).

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:29 pm 
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Too many long paragraphs. I'm not even gonna read it.

Ponuh has been taken captive by a happy person who misspells every once in a while.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:54 pm 
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I'm so out of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:04 pm 
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Mr. West's Stronger Music Video

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=TToP_YZoTrY[/youtube]

He kind of stays true to the original. But of course it aint a rap video without a minority super model dancing on a pole! :)

I give the video a 6/10, only because they really didnt need that freaking girl. I'm still infatuated with the song though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:30 pm 
Incredibly Tough!
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Hip Hop I like:

Atmosphere, Immortal Technique

How fitting, taken from an Immortal Technique song. I tend to agree with the bolded part:

I want fifty three million dollars for my collar stand
like the Bush administration gave to the Taliban
and fuck packing grams nigga, learn to speak and behave
you wanna spend twenty years as a government slave
two million people in prison keep the government paid
stuck in a six block eight cell alive in the grave
i was made by revolution to speak to the masses
deep in the club toast the truth, reach for the classes
I burn an orphanage just to bring heat to you bastards
innocent deep in a casket, columbian fashion
intoxicated of the flow like thugs passion
you motherfuckers will never get me to stop blastin'
your better off asking Ariel Sharon for compasion
your better off banging for twenty points for a label
your better off battling cancer under telephone cabels
Technique chemically unstable, set to explode
foretold by the dead sea scrolls written in codes
so if your message ain't shit, fuck the records you sold
cuz if you go platinum, it's got nothing to do with luck
it just means that a million people are stupid as fuck

stuck in the underground in general and rose to the limit
without distribution managers, a deal, or a gimmick
Revolutionary Volume 2, murder the critics
and leave your fucking body rotten for the roaches and crickets


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:43 pm 
Emo Immolator
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I listen to most of the music I have either because it simply sounds good or its unlike anything else i've heard before. I don't like reading too much in to music. I'd rather it coat my brain like a blanket and turn my mind off then it try to teach me lessons or tell me about cultures or lifestyles I don't identify with in the slightest.

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