Ok here's a good arguement. we don't know shit about animals. Everything we know about animals and emotions is BS. It's all speculation. If you can prove to me without any doubt that when you stab an animal he feels pain. Sure he cringes... but what does that mean? I could cringe right now and I don't feel pain. Ferns cringe. How do we know that it's pain that the animals are feeling and not Euphoria? Maybe they like being slaughtered. there's really no way of knowing. It's impossible. I don't even know that my friends feel pain. How do we even know that we all feel the same things? We could all be feeling different things and calling the the same things! /philosophy (I'm being half sarcastic with this response and mean no disrespect. It really... really comes down to opinion. You could argue forever about this shit and never get a definite answer)

Maybe once a lion decides to become a veagan because he feels compassion for his fellow antelope I'll reconsider.

Perfect.

Humans are animals just like the Lion used in this example. So what makes us any different? We act on instinct which is why we started eating meat in the first place.

No one said that.

Quit dancing around my point.

Humans are made to survive. If that means we need to kill some animals to get the nutrients we need then so be it. You people are letting your emotions get in the way of your instinct to survive.


EDIT: Don't get me wrong here; I'm not knocking Veganism or Vegetarianism. I respect your decision to be a vegan but you need to understand that we are simply animals and we do what we need to survive.

Hai, you desperately need a kitten or puppy in your life.

But Matti, you can survive without meat so your whole point about "survival" is moot. I'm not preaching because people are capable of their own decisions, but I shudder in horror for the people who support the stuff in that video.

Taken from another Vegan reference page (Vrg.org):





I'll give you that one.



There's more but I'll leave it at that because I want to get a drawing done so I can go home. haha

What this says is you have to be very careful with how you get your nutrients. Some CANNOT be obtained from a Vegan diet. Does this seem natural to you? You are putting yourself in a position where you could easily miss nutrients that your body needs in order to live healthy. Yes, you can survive without meat but it is suggested that in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle you must consume things to replace these nutrients such as "Red Star nutritional yeast T6635 also known as Vegetarian Support Formula."



EDIT: Here's some more...



Hmm...

I like animals and all, they're cute and fuzzy (at least some of them). There's a sentimental attachment to the animal. But I mean really... can't you have a sentimental attachement to a lot of things? I mean I really like my skateboard, if I saw a video of people beating on my skateboard I might flip........

...

...


kickflip!! hoho!

Anyways emotions get in the way too much. Some animals are cute, some aren't. Puppies come over and lick you on the face, snakes bite your nuts. Lions eat antelope, snakes eat mice, falcons eat other birds, humans eat them al because we're awesome that way.

As for your point Thunderstomp, no, I don't agree with those conditions. I said that in my first post too. There's a line and I think they've crossed it. I mean really those dudes throwing those chickens into the truck are really just full of hatred..... wtf are they trying to prove by throwing the chickens that hard? They're gonna start doing stupid shit someday as a result of their behaviour methinks.

Unatural to me is looking at the farm animal who was fed genetic hormones to increase it's normal size by 300%, and watching as its legs break under the enormous pressure. I'll take a vitamin over that anyday.

I don't care who eats what, but christ, that is horrible living conditions for anyone/anything for fuck's sakes.

lol our only problem is that we are human. We suck and we will never change.

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everything matti is saying seems to just support its completely possible to live perfectly healthy without eating any meat, so its your decision if you want to kill animals to do it or not. as far as meat being natural doesnt phase me a bit, everything humans do defies nature i dont see why our eating habits shouldnt. rape was probably a natural way of insemination before civilization, murder was probably a natural way to show dominance before civilization, it doesnt mean these practices should be socially acceptable today. SURVIVAL basically comes down to the ability to procreate, you could be making the same argument justifying rape in order to pass on your genes, after all your just trying to be successful in terms of survival by procreating and the ends justify the means. now it may seem harsh to compare meat eating to rape (although it doesnt seem harsh at all through my eyes) but what is "natural" is often a defense when i converse this topic (which is quite often for a vegan, so were usually pretty well prepared when the topic comes up, maybe an advantage but w/e haha). my point really is, no laws, morals, religion, civilization is really "natural" just as veganism/vegetarianism isnt really natural. to shoot it down based on this solely shoots down ever other sense of morality humans hold. its like saying we should be wandering around killing each other and shitting in the streets like cavemen with no morals the natural way like our ancestors did it. hai brings up that humans have a higher mental capacity, but then says well animals eat each other so we should do it too, do you see the hypocrisy? (and btw hai, your responses seem utterly ridiculous and hardly merit a response. but you can google "nervous system" if your really as clueless as your leading on to be :P)

nevertheless, humans often disregard something that doesnt directly benefit them. should we even begin to scratch the surface on the environmental impact of the overproduction of livestock? the water conditions, the impact on rainforest land, the inefficiency of land use in general, more efficient plans to solve hunger? there is alot more benefits to veganism than just morality, but admitedly i am not as well versed as i could be without doing some fact checking as i am not vegan for environmental reasons.

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All of the vegetarians I know resort to supplements or processed methods similar to that to get what they don't get from meat. That's sort of counter intuitive to the whole "Natural is best" thing I see from vegetarians alot

You know, if you cooked a human well enough, I'd probably eat it.

Last post was really nice Ruby



I know I wont stop eating meat...why, I'm not sure. I blame God for not giving us any indication of what is agood and bad ;p

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I learned about this in biology class once. There are a few proteins and also vitamin b12 that vegans don't usually get in their diets because they are from bacteria, and contrary to old days, these days we sanitize everything out of fear of germs and disease. B12 for instance is "bacteria's shit" which used to be found in fruits and vegetables but now they are killed off by pesticides and even sanitation practices of organic fruits and vegetables. The only vegetables that you can buy that have these proteins and B12 are cultured vegetables like Tempeh, which contain controlled amounts of bacteria.

Meat and cheese are very high in B12 because they contain a lot of bacteria.

If you grew your own stuff and didn't treat it you'd get the trace amounts of B12 needed.

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My response was supposed to be rediculous. I don't really care to debate this. But no, just because something has what we call a "Nervous System" is not solid proof that something feels pain. Maybe what they have is something slightly different? Maybe the version they have allows them to feel pleasure in the act of being hit by things? Science is by no means the end-all answer to most questions. kthnx

Actually teh muslims dont eat pigs and Hindus dont eat cows.




Go World religion class :D

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ok I see worse and I used to haul those meat. but what about fish? That why I always eat sushi. well only once a week cuzz its not cheap heh.

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i think all animals have a lv of emotion they feel. its fits in very very well with instincts. so yea im sure these animals are suffering and in fear. but kinda need to take a little step back and see the big picture. look how people, our own kind are treated and live everyday. personaly i feel like we as humans should start by focusing on us... then the rest will solve itself really.

ok i know this sounds a bit off so i should explain. if life were based on education as opposed to economics, then you can be sure that things would be very different. there are people who struggle, live on the streets and go hungry everyday.. all the while slipping further down the hole of insanity because of it.

now i bring all this up because to show the validation of my next view. humans train of thought is geared towards greed. animals are treated the way they are because its cheaper than doing it a different way. now say everyone turns vegan, and puts the meat buisiness out to pasture so to speak. then guess whats the next big money maker? agriculture.

ok so plants dont have emotions but growning them takes space, water, climate and pesticides. now all these companies develop more and more pesticides, water shortages in certain areas will occur due to over usage of the resources. not to mention you cant grow things all year around in every state. i can even see a type of strip mining approach to growing crops taking place. solving one problem with another doesnt help in the end.

personally i think the best solution to this would be to educate people on how to eat healthy (personally i think education should be totally free but w/e). the biggest contributor to these attrocities isnt your local butcher... but the fast food places you stop by after work... or the restaurants you eat at. im just going from my point of view, i have no idea "what" to eat really. so i fall back on something off of a neon menu ordering thru a speaker. anyways i dont nessicarily think i have all the answers and all that was off the top of my head, but i do think ruby has good intentions. and i also dont think matti or anyone else is wrong. i just think we should try and think outside the box, because the direct route hasnt seemed to work

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(prelude to more arguing)

Honestly, are any of these posts going to change any of our opinions? Probably not. We're all pretty dead-set stubborn.

(argues anyway for no real reason)

Ruby argued that the way we go about producing enough meat for the population is horrific in terms of input/output ratios. Of course it is. But people WANT meat. And society's way of getting it to us is a hell of a lot better than hunting individually, like I said. If vegetable diets are more energy efficient, well, yeah, sure. But no one really cares. Because we want meat. Our bodies tell us we want it. We're designed that way. And if we can morally rise above murder and rape, we can't rise above eating meat, because its part of a balanced diet to keep humans healthy and happy, unlike the former two.

The conditions should be improved, no real argument there. I just want my Big Mac, and by God, I'm going to have it.

Oh, and I love my kitty, and love fruit, and all that.

someone let loose some bears on the street i want to get naked and kill something and eat it.

ill bring the whiskey and spears, you handle the loincloths ilma

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The problem with xiona's post is that if the human race all suddenly became vegan, there would actually be less plant farming to do.

33% of the world's wheat goes to feed livestock,
95% of the world's soy goes to feed livestock,
73% of the world's corn goes to feed livestock,
95% of the world's oils go to feed livestock.

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i wont stop eatting meat but i have cut down on meat alot, once my step mom introduced me into the world of vegitarian, organic food tastes alot better than just the regular kind. supposibly organic milk eggs and meat or w/e don't endure as much or any pain and/or suffering like the animals in the video did, nor are they geniticly modifyed. I couldnt see myself as a vegan, i like my chocolate milk too much. ever since watching supersize me i wont touch any "fast food".

but i have a question, are the animals forced to breed or do they do it on their own? i'm sorry i couldnt watch past the chicken part...